Episode 047
Pamela Mack
How do you transition from a supportive role to leading a company for over a decade? In this episode of Women’s Million Dollar Conversations, Alice Tang sits down with her longtime friend and President of Occuscreen, Pamela Mack, to discuss the reality of building a business over 30 years. Pamela opens up about the “imposter syndrome” that many women face and how she overcame her own internal biases to embrace her role as a leader. From learning to delegate to experts to “befriending” fear, Pamela shares how she built a successful background screening company while staying true to her values of security and experience.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
“The skills that are easy for me are not always easy for other people… that’s why you surround yourself with people who have those skills and lean into your own.”
00:00:00] Intro
Narrator: Welcome to Women’s Million Dollar Conversations with Alice Tang, where we share stories from successful business women who have saved, earned, or sold over a million dollars and discuss how they built their success and insights to help you achieve your goals. Now, let’s join the conversation.
[00:00:12] Alice Tang: Good morning, everyone. I’m Alice Tang from Oregon, and I’m the host of Women’s Million Dollar Conversations. Today, we have a wonderful guest—my good friend for the past 20 years (depending on who’s counting). She’s the president of OcuScreen, a background screening company. Welcome, Pamela.
[00:00:28] Pamela Mack: Thank you, Alice. I’m so happy to spend any time with you. I’m glad to be here and hang out with you for a little bit.
[00:00:36] Alice Tang: Pamela, would you share a little bit about the company you’re president of, and a little bit about yourself, before we drill you with all these questions our audience wants answers to?
[00:00:52] Pamela Mack: Yeah, of course. Our company is AccuScreen, and we help employers hire confidently by providing criminal background checks, drug testing, monitoring services, and other pre-employment or employment screening services. We’ve been doing it for over 30 years. I’ve been leading it for the last—maybe—10.
[00:01:17] Alice Tang: Yeah, I just recalled and admire you so much because when we met, really, you were at the beginning of your career.
[00:01:25] Pamela Mack: Yes. My husband actually started the company about 30-plus years ago, and I was home taking care of the children and supporting him as I could. When I met you, Alice, I had just started working with the company doing some sales and that sort of thing. So in the past almost 20 years, I went from being a supportive sales arm to really taking on the whole company—
[00:01:52] Alice Tang: The—
[00:01:53] Pamela Mack: —with the support of an amazing team, I will add.
[00:01:58] Alice Tang: Good. Of course. Of course.
[00:02:00] Alice Tang: Talking about money here—what’s the value of money for you?
[00:02:07] Pamela Mack: I think there are different levels of value. Number one is security. For me, it was very ingrained that money is security, and that without it, it feels very unsafe to live in the world and worry all the time about your finances. So I think that’s number one. And once you have that base level where you feel at least secure, I think a lot of it is about experience. It opens opportunities and allows you to have experiences that you couldn’t have. And you can have lots of great experiences without money—but you can have lots of really good experiences with it as well.
[00:02:46] Alice Tang: Very well put. My dad used to say—in a positive way—if money can solve it, it’s not a problem. My philosophy, just like you, is to make money and to have money so that if problems or challenges show up in front of us—helping a family member, for example—we don’t have to think about it. But there are things we cannot solve with money: building strong relationships with loved ones, or health. If we have a little more money, maybe we can get help with other things and focus our energy on what truly matters to us.
[00:03:25] Alice Tang: Great, Pamela. So here we go. To be our guest, you have made a million, saved a million, or sold a million. We’re going to focus on one of these three tracks today because we have limited time.
[00:03:36] Alice Tang: Let’s talk about the first million. How long did it take you to get there—and what are some of the biases or challenges you faced along the way?
[00:03:53] Pamela Mack: It doesn’t even seem real because when we were children, a million dollars was like—wow—that’s what really rich people had, and we’d never have that. So obviously things have changed. And still, it’s amazing to me that we started a company from nothing and were able to turn it into something that has value. It’s a very good feeling to know that commitment to what we were doing has paid off that way.
[00:04:22] Pamela Mack: As far as biases personally—and you will understand this strongly—I’m small, female, and getting older, so I think I’m very easily dismissed. I think even within my family, it’s “cute” that I’m running the company. I’m not kidding. So there can be this belief that I’m not really a business person.
[00:04:45] Pamela Mack: And honestly, I think in the first place I was the one who had that belief. I was my biggest bias. It wasn’t something I thought I’d do, or wanted to do at the beginning—and I didn’t think I was qualified. I went into that belief with everyone else, like it was silly for me to even think about doing it. And over time, I had to learn that I actually did have skills.
[00:05:11] Pamela Mack: At the beginning, I thought anything that was a skill for me was “just easy.” If I did something well, it was easy. If someone else did something well, it’s because they learned or had knowledge. It took me a long time to realize the skills that are easy for me are not always easy for other people—and they have skills that I want and need too. That’s why you surround yourself with people who have those skills and lean into your own.
[00:05:43] Alice Tang: Here you are.
[00:05:45] Pamela Mack: And here I am.
[00:05:48] Alice Tang: In your journey achieving success, you might have dealt with a lot of difficult times. There may have been times you felt, “It’s too hard. I want to quit.”
[00:05:57] Pamela Mack: Oh, many times.
[00:06:00] Alice Tang: So what kept you going?
[00:06:05] Pamela Mack: I think stubbornness—and the knowledge that I had a goal I couldn’t give up. We had three children. We had a home to pay for. We had all these things. There didn’t feel like a real option to just give up. Of course there are always choices—yes, we could have gone off and done something else—but there was a stubbornness, and a belief that I could see this future and I wanted to keep moving toward it. It wasn’t going to be easy. Nothing’s ever going to be handed to you.
[00:06:40] Pamela Mack: So having that consistent vision—“we’re going to keep doing this and it’s eventually going to work out”—kept me going. And also… not knowing what else to do. This is what we do, so we’re going to keep doing it.
[00:06:59] Alice Tang: If I summarize: reminding yourself of the company vision, and the responsibility of providing for your family—those were the pillars that helped you keep moving forward. No other choice but to move forward.
[00:07:17] Pamela Mack: No, it didn’t feel like there were any other choices that made sense besides continuing. And it took a long time for it to pay off. We’ve been doing this 30 years, and I’d say it’s been paying off for the last few—really, for the most part. But we had something that kept us going and supported us and our team for a long time. It’s just finally really clear—those benefits have taken a long time.
[00:07:53] Alice Tang: Thank you for saying that. Wealth doesn’t show up overnight. The harder we work, the more we sweat, the sweeter the fruit—at least that’s what I heard. English is my second language, so I may not be saying it perfectly.
[00:08:08] Alice Tang: I’m also curious: there are a lot of decisions in your business. At your level, you may not be making all decisions because you’re a great delegator—not just tasks, but responsibility—so you can focus on what you’re good at.
[00:08:22] Alice Tang: When you’re making the decisions that no one else can make for you, what’s your process?
[00:08:31] Pamela Mack: Almost to a fault, I like to get information before I make a decision. There’s that quick reaction—where you want to decide immediately—then I pull it back and start looking into it. I’ve gotten better over the years at realizing you’re never going to learn enough to make every decision perfect.
[00:08:58] Pamela Mack: So at some point you get the information you need, and then you decide and go forward. I usually go forward with an attitude of, “Let’s try it.” If it doesn’t work, we’ll back off and do something else. But it’s hard not to stall yourself by thinking of all the worst-case scenarios—what ifs—needing more information before you move forward.
[00:09:31] Pamela Mack: One thing I’ve learned is to get enough information to make a smart enough decision, and then realize: if it’s wrong, we’ll deal with it. Usually these aren’t life-threatening decisions. Sometimes they take you in a direction you didn’t expect, and then you adjust. But overall, when we decide to do something different and move forward, we often end up saying, “Why didn’t we do this a long time ago?” It’s usually not as traumatic as we imagine.
[00:10:05] Alice Tang: You made me think of fear. Some people make decisions purely by gut. Some people noodle on it forever—thinking of everything that can fall apart—then they get paralyzed. You seem in the middle: there’s still some fear of the unknown, but you can move forward and trust you can correct course.
[00:10:25] Alice Tang: I’d like to touch on the fear factor. Do you ever feel fearful—like, “What if it doesn’t work out”—even when you’re leaning in to try? Can you tell our audience a little about that?
[00:10:41] Pamela Mack: I have a lifetime relationship with fear. And over time, I’m learning when to invite it in—let it teach me and guide me—and when to say, “Okay, back off. You’re overdoing it.” Fear is there for a reason. It’s helpful. It’s one of the many emotions and thoughts we’ll have. We can’t pretend it doesn’t exist.
[00:11:12] Pamela Mack: Sometimes we do have to embrace it—but with the knowledge that it’s there to help us make a decision, or notice something we need to think about. But it’s not there to control the situation. I work on keeping fear as a friendly, helpful voice—like, “Hey, watch out”—instead of letting it take over and run everything. Because that’s when it becomes difficult, and life becomes hard to move through at all.
[00:11:45] Pamela Mack: I remind myself that everything is pretty sacred—and fear will keep you from experiencing life. It will keep you from everything if you let it.
[00:11:58] Alice Tang: What I learned from you is: befriend fear and ask it, “What should I learn from you? Why are you here? Are you here to protect me?” Have a conversation with fear.
[00:12:12] Pamela Mack: …and then it’ll go away.
[00:12:14] Alice Tang: Into sleep, right? Then you can move.
[00:12:19] Alice Tang: There are audience members looking up to you and saying, “I can relate.”
[00:12:25] Alice Tang: What’s the one thing you want to tell them—in order to be successful and get to their first million? Your number one piece of advice.
[00:12:37] Pamela Mack: Oh goodness—that’s hard because I still have a lot of imposter syndrome myself. I’d say: don’t let the part of you that says, “You can’t do this, you’re not capable, you’re not good at everything” run the show.
[00:12:57] Pamela Mack: I truly believed I had to be good at everything. I thought I needed to fully understand every side of the business and be fantastic at every side—an expert in it all. It took me a while to realize: I actually don’t. There are great people in the world who can guide you.
[00:13:19] Pamela Mack: In all walks of life, there are people who can help—people with different perspectives and skill sets you don’t have. Surround yourself with people who can boost your confidence and fill gaps. And you can do the same for them. With that kind of community support, you don’t need to be everything yourself.
[00:13:43] Pamela Mack: It’s hard for me to let go of wanting to be the best at everything—but it’s silly. Who is the best at everything? It doesn’t even make sense. Have faith in yourself, and when you don’t know something, find someone who does. That’s okay. Let go of perfection. Lean on other people, support each other, and know you can get where you’re going that way.
[00:14:12] Alice Tang: Wow. Goosebumps over goosebumps. I probably learned—
[00:14:15] Pamela Mack: Most of that from you, Alice—
[00:14:17] Alice Tang: No—because I still feel like I have to be perfect. Perfect wife, perfect partner, perfect child… but I can’t be perfect.
[00:14:30] Pamela Mack: No—and it’s the hardest thing to accept. Every day I have to tell myself: “Why do you think you have to? Who are you, that you have to be perfect at absolutely everything?” It’s not reasonable. And it’s not even fair to others, in a way. People should be honored for what’s special about them. Why would you take on everything when other people have skills and abilities that could help you?
[00:14:58] Alice Tang: Absolutely. Teamwork makes the dream work, and I’m only part of a team.
[00:15:06] Alice Tang: We’re winding down to the last couple questions. Are you reading a book right now? And if you are, would you share it—or share a piece of very bad advice you’ve received that made a big impact? Either one.
[00:15:25] Pamela Mack: Bad advice… I’ll go with a book. I’ve had a couple people in my life lose someone—or go through the process of losing someone—recently. It’s helped me remember things don’t stay the same as much as we want them to. Going through that experience with them has helped me feel a little more prepared—not because you’re experiencing it yourself, but because you’re thinking about things in a way you never have before.
[00:15:59] Pamela Mack: One friend recommended The Year of Magical Thinking by Joan Didion, and her next book as well. It doesn’t sound like a fun book—reading about her husband dying—but what I’m learning is: you don’t know what you don’t know. I’m not in that situation yet, and I don’t want to be, but I’ve learned a lot about things I never would have thought of—by witnessing it through others. It’s helped me learn more, within my own family, about how to manage things as we move along.
[00:16:35] Pamela Mack: That was pretty depressing. Maybe I should think of something else.
[00:16:40] Alice Tang: If we talk about grieving—behind the scenes, you and I talked a lot. It’s not only death. It’s any change. We hold onto something so hard—a memory, losing a family member, or anything. You were there helping me grieve, too.
[00:16:59] Pamela Mack: Yes, I know. Change is very hard. As humans, it’s easy when things change for the better. When things change for the worse, we feel it’s unfair—we don’t deserve it—and yet it’s real. Things are always going to change.
[00:17:22] Pamela Mack: It’s helped me focus on the moment—knowing this moment is what it is. It’s sacred because it’s what you have. Even if it’s not happy or good, you can still be grateful you’re in a position to experience it—because a lot of people aren’t.
[00:17:47] Pamela Mack: I remind myself constantly: even if something seems awful in the moment, I’m lucky to be here to experience it. Life is not just the good things—it’s all part of it, the whole experience. And going through difficult things with other people—like you, Alice—broadens our life experience and creates closer relationships. I really appreciate that.
[00:18:14] Alice Tang: Back at you.
[00:18:16] Alice Tang: Last question: what are you grateful for today?
[00:18:23] Pamela Mack: I’m grateful for everything. I’m very grateful for being healthy and alive and able to experience life. Health is huge, and it’s not promised, and it won’t last forever—so that’s a big one. I’m grateful for family, friends, and support. And I’m trying to remind myself every day how lucky we are to be here, to experience these things—even if they’re not what we want in the moment. It’s still an honor to be able to experience it.
[00:18:59] Alice Tang: Very good. We’re super grateful you made time this morning, in your busy president role, to share a candid and wonderful conversation our audience can learn from. The biggest thing I learned from you is about the moment: even if the moment seems bad—frustrating, uncomfortable—at least I’m breathing oxygen to experience it. The alternative isn’t preferred.
[00:19:20] Pamela Mack: We don’t know yet—but we prefer just to enjoy this experience.
[00:19:24] Alice Tang: That’s true. So thank you, Pamela, for giving us your time. We appreciate you.
[00:19:30] Pamela Mack: Thank you for having me. I’m very honored to be here. I really appreciate spending time with you.
[00:19:36] Alice Tang: Great. Thank you, Pamela.
Pam joined Occuscreen in 2006, supporting the business her husband started in 1991. Taking on the role of President in 2019 allowed her to expand her focus on sales and marketing to include efficiency of operations, team development and promoting the great culture at Occuscreen. Occuscreen helps employers nationwide to hire confidently by providing additional applicant information through criminal background and drug screening services.
Pamela joined the Portland Human Resource Management Association Board in 2007, holding positions as Special Interest Group Co-leader, Programs Co-Director, Marketing, Co-Directing the Strategic Management Conference, Workforce Readiness Co-Director, and is also a Past President.
She has volunteered to promote Second Chance hiring by speaking at events for the DKB Foundation and visiting prisons to talk about the background screening process for those about to re-enter society.
Pamela has past experience in travel sales, direct sales, as well as event planning for volunteer organizations.